HSC-84/85 fighting for survival

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HSC-84/85 fighting for survival

CDR Rich Carroll HSC84
Dear Sirs,
I hope I am not intruding in forum.....I trust you know that we in the Redwolves and Firehawks hold you all in the highest regard for all that you have done.
Long story short once again the Navy is looking to make cuts to save $$ and 84/85 are likely targets. I received a letter from CAPT(ret) Sean Butcher to as many alumni as he knew suggesting that all of us get in touch with our congress reps especially those on armed services committee.  I cannot understand why the Navy would choose to do this ...
I don't know if any of you all know of any congressmen/women or any other connections that could help the fight, but I also ask for your prayers.
With Much Respect
Rich Carroll
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Re: HSC-84/85 fighting for survival

Mike Dobson
CDR, The Navy, for all it's years, has a habit of repeated occurrences of blindness. HAL-3 was put to sleep even after it had become the most decorated squadron in the Navy's history. With much of the same intelligence used when the Combat Aircrew Wings were taken off the rolls at the end of the Korean War (enlisted would never again be involved in aerial combat) HAL-3 was set aside without ever serving a minute in the United States. The need for the close helicopter support has never gone away. Ask any SEAL what they think of lost support. Special Ops has not gone away by a long shot, and close support by a knowledgeable and capable unit is vital to survival of our Brothers in peril. With the technical ability to deliver ordinance with pinpoint accuracy, fighter/bombers aren't the "point" anymore. Drones, satellites, Gps, and laser guided ordinance have taken over much of the pilot's former responsibility. But, none of it can pick up a team or deliver "close in" firepower for a engaged team. Much of what we were as SEAWOLVES has been neutered - They went back to the forward firing is boss mentality. They created the Aircrew designation as a rate straight from boot camp, which again lessened the effectiveness and value of the crew because they now can do PT, but don't know how to fix the aircraft. The Navy dreamed up unbelievably expensive aircraft that are supposedly "multi use" ---- but aren't effective in any roll as envisioned. The men on the "line" have been doing the best they can with these aircraft, but now, the Navy is talking seriously about shutting down the sole remaining asset. perhaps this is more of the "But that was a long time ago, what does it matter ?" mentality !      just sayin'  
Mike Dobson (ROH)
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Re: HSC-84/85 fighting for survival

Bill Rutledge
CDR,  Dobson has said it all  84 and 85 are a Vital and Needed asset, We can see what happens in recent combat incidents  to ground troops when there is no Close Armed Helo Support,  THE OBAMA PLAN IN WORK to downgrade our military,  OUR COUNTRY NEEDS YOUR UNITS.
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Re: HSC-84/85 fighting for survival

Roger Ek, Seawolf 25
In reply to this post by CDR Rich Carroll HSC84
It just happens that our newly elected, pro-gun, pro-military Congressman from Maine is a buddy of mine. I'll put a bug in his ear about this. I have less influence on our lady senator, but she does know me. I'll mention it to her also. The SEALs are getting a lot of attention lately and we know better than anybody how they need help on occasion and who they called.
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Re: HSC-84/85 fighting for survival

Rich Carroll HSC-84 guy
Hello Mr. Ek and Seawolves - CAPT(Ret) Butcher had put together a talking points sheet from prior deliberation on what would be done with 84/85 if I can share it with you all for talking to your congressman. I dont want to blow smoke up your ass but our accomplishments pale in comparison to what you all did - a summary of the Seawolves accomplishments are posted in HSC-84 hallway and serve to motivate us.

I.  HISTORICAL SUPPORT
HSC-84/85 support to NSW dates back to Vietnam War
HAL-3: 1967-1972
HAL-4/5: 1976/1977-1989
HCS-4/5: 1989-2006
HSC-84/85: 2006 - Present
Operational support to NSW includes:
Vietnam - 1966-1972
Desert Storm - 1991
Restore (Uphold) Democracy - 1994
Operation Iraqi Freedom/ Operation New Dawn (OIF/OND) – 2003-2011
Flew over 13,000 hours in support of SOF missions in Iraq.
6,850 Direct Action/ assault hours
Recognized as Theater SOF, continued request by CENTCOM to fill SOF theater validated requirements post Iraq.
HSC-84 CENTCOM SOF support – 2012 to Present
HSC-84 continually deployed detachment in CENTCOM since MAR 2003.
HSC-85 PACOM SOF support – 2013 to Present
Filling similar SOF support requirement in PACOM.
Navy rotary wing support to SOF has been established, decommissioned, and reestablished throughout their history.
HAL-3 decommissioned in 1972.  HAL-4/5 established in 1976/1977.
HCS-5 decommissioned in 2006.  Reestablished in 2011 as new HSC-85.


II.  HSC-84/85 DATA
Squadrons are resourced differently than Active Component squadrons (ADCON through CNAFR)
HSC-84/85 not tied to Carrier Strike Group (CSG) or HSC Expeditionary model
Training syllabus more robust than Fleet, graduate program, modeled on 160th SOAR.
HSC-84/85 primary mission is SOF support, majority of training and flight time dedicated to common SOF tactics, techniques, and procedures (TTPs) exclusively.
SOCOM/USN MOA—Dedicated SOF support (4 helo detachment- 1.0 presence)
Experience:
No first tour pilots; average flight time of 2200 hours with significant operational experience vs. Fleet average of 850 hours.
Average rounds for Aircrewman to qualify: 14,600 rds vs. Fleet avg 2,400 rds.
ORM: Substantially less risk when working with HSC-84/85 on same type mission as HSC fleet squadrons.






III. FY-13 DATA SUPPORTING SOCOM REQUEST TO REMOVE HSC-84/85 FROM NAVY FY15 APOM SUBMISSION.

HSC-84/85 provides 32% of all rotary wing support to SOF enterprise.
Total medium lift helicopter support to all Theater (white) SOF: 54 x H-60s
2nd, 3rd, and 4th Battalion of 160th SOAR: 30 x H-60s
HSC-84/85: 24 x H-60s (12 each)
~7500 hours executed by HSC-84/85 in FY-13
36% directly supported SOF training
17% directly supported deployed operations
46% support internal training
Breakdown of Flight hour support and percentage of support by components:

HSC-84/85 FY 13 COMPONENT SUPPORT FLIGHT HOURS

NSWC
USASOC
MARSOC
AFSOC
HSC-84
1361.4
790.9
625.0
352.7
HSC-85
850.8
414.0
345.0
0
TOTAL HRS
2212.2
1204.9
970.0
352.7

Naval Special Warfare receives a majority of HSC-84/85 support due to collocation with assets from NSWG-1/2 in San Diego and Norfolk, VA.
NSW and MARSOC receive most support due to geographic location of units.
HSC-84: Norfolk, VA
HSC-85: NAS North Island, San Diego, CA
SOAR 2nd Battalion: FT. Campbell, KY (765 miles to Norfolk)
SOAR 3rd Battalion: Hunter AAF, Savannah, GA (480 miles to Norfolk)
SOAR 4th Battalion: FT. Lewis, Spokane, WA (1212 miles to San Diego)
Historically, NSW and MARSOC have received less support due to cost to SOAR to support training detachments on the coasts.
SOAR is unable to meet increasing demand of rotary wing support to SOF.  This demand signal will not diminish post Afghanistan.
One of ADM Bill McRaven’s main efforts is preservation of the force and family (POTFF) to include reducing PERSTEMPO of operators to keep them home more and conduct more pre-mission training (PMT) in local area prior to deployments.
Retaining HSC-84/85 will reduce PERSTEMPO for NSW, MARSOC and some USASOC units by affording more training being completed at garrison vice TAD.
HSC-84/85 are maritime focused squadrons:
Navy aircraft are equipped to deploy at sea (blade fold, rotor head and brake, HERO conditions)
Corrosion/ preservation of airframes
Navy flight crews have significant time operating at sea and around vessels.






IV. ASSESSMENT
If you lost HSC-84/85 to APOM, you would lose:
Decade’s worth of combat experienced SOF rotary wing aviators/ crews
Two squadrons totaling 24 x H-60s dedicated to SOF mission sets
2730 flight hours of dedicated SOF/SOCOM support
Approx 2600 hours of operationally deployed TSOC support (projected 1300 hrs each squadron in FY-14)
HSC-84/85 supports the entire SOF enterprise with the majority of their support going to NSWC and MARSOC for training and TSOCs for operational/deployed support.
Training support is balanced on both coasts.  One coast does not receive significantly more support than the other.
Throughout the history of Navy SOF rotary wing support, squadrons have been decommissioned twice, only to be brought back shortly after.
Growth of SOF ground forces has outpaced growth of SOF rotary wing assets.
160th SOAR assets will not grow in near future. Will have to do more with less.
SOF requirements for H-60s far exceed supply. A rotary wing shortfall exists as proven by unsourced RFFs, SOCOM CAMPLAN 2020 MH-60 requirements, 2009 CAN study, RAND study, case studies, etc.


V. RECOMMENDATION
A two-squadron model is needed to support the SOF Enterprise at today’s OPTEMPO.
Minimum number of helicopters per squadron should be 9-10 aircraft.
A reduction below 9 helicopters per squadron will increase risk to capability to support either operations or training.
A reduction in number of squadrons, two to one or none, will jeopardize capability, capacity and war time readiness of SOF ground forces across the enterprise, especially to NSWC, MARSOC, CENTCOM and PACOM.



VI. RECENT EVENTS REGARDING FY-15 APOM DECISION
Two parallel efforts underway regarding saving HSC-84/85 from decommissioning.

Effort #1: ALT-POM process (SOCOM issue paper regarding HSC-84/85)
Issue resides with Naval Forces/Balance issue team due to desire by OSD to resolve issue with “out of court” agreement between OPNAV and SOCOM.  New timeline for this issue is to go to 3 star review in the next week or so and then to the Defense Management Advisory Group (DMAG) final recommendation is now the 28th of November.

Effort #2: Direct SOCOM/OPNAV “out of court” Discussion (Purple Note)
- CNO responded positively to SOCOM CDR Purple Note (PN).  OPNAV N8/N9 (VADM Myers/VADM Aucoin) prepared COAs in response to SOCOM request.
- VADM Myers and LtGen Heithold are senior members of discussion at OPNAV and SOCOM.
Initial Navy offer:
Crosswalk 1 x squadron, 12 aircraft and 50% personnel to MFP-11. Transition to MH-60S.
- Development of COAs for SOCOM response has matured around three:
COA1: Crosswalk 1 or 2 squadrons to USSOCOM.
COA2: Cost-share: Navy retains ownership, SOCOM pays for services provided.
COA3: Status quo: Navy supports current requirement, finds offset for APOM.

- Concerns of SOCOM/WARCOM:
Ownership would entail Navy transfer of not only the airframes and associated manpower, but all infrastructure, operating, maintenance, repair, and modernization funds currently programmed across the FYDP
Issue pertaining to selection, assessment, training, qualification, status, and career management of squadron members would have to be addressed by SOCOM.

- Operational Requirements:
J3 Operational assessment: HSC-84/85 support to SOF is mission critical due to rotary wing shortfalls.
TSOC operational demand, with GCC endorsement identifies support provided by HSC-84 and 85 as a valid enduring requirement.
Recommends current force of 2 x squadrons.  Decreasing to 1 x squadron of high demand/ low-density assets will result in increased risk to one coast that will not receive the required training.  


 VII. POSSIBLE OUTCOMES
If “out of court” settlement not reached through PN negotiations, DMAG could recommend:
1.Disestablishment of HSC-84/85. Concur with Navy, leave squadrons on APOM list.
2.Navy continue to source:
a.Navy finds another offset for APOM or could be given more funding.
b.Navy could continue support with legacy platform or transition to MH-60S.
c.Might not result in long-term solution, legacy issues.
d.Needs to be further codified in Navy SOCOM War Fighter Talks (WFT)
e.Provides time (1-2 years) to conduct analysis and provide feasible, acceptable and sustainable COAs.
3.Shared resourcing squadrons.
4.SOCOM resource squadrons.
a.More time needed to do analysis and provide feasible, acceptable, sustainable COAs.


Most recent offer by Navy on 8 November is 2 x squadrons of 6 aircraft each in the HH-60H. Navy pays for it all.  Issues:
Legacy aircraft, will be unable to support in the long term.  
Navy knows this and is selling SOCOM a used car lemon.
Deal needs to be brokered to offer new MH-60S BLK IIIs.
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Re: HSC-84/85 fighting for survival

Rick Meussner
In reply to this post by CDR Rich Carroll HSC84
CDR Carroll, I am planning to preset your request and Sean Butcher's data to Congressman Joe Courntey this week.
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Re: HSC-84/85 fighting for survival

Rick Meussner
In reply to this post by CDR Rich Carroll HSC84
Gents, I've put together aletter and several attachments to give to our local congressman. The letter is an appeal, and the attachments provide historical information, data and most importantly, reasons why HSC-84 & 85 should not be decommissioned.

Anyone who wants copies to send to your congressmen, please email me. Feel free to adapt or re-write the cover  letter. the letter follows.

Representative Joe Courtney 12/17/2014
Congressman for Connecticut’s Second District
c/o Enfield, CT Regional Office
77 Hazard Ave, Unit J, Enfield, CT 06082

Subject: HSC-84 Red Wolves & HSC-85 Fire Hawks, U.S. Navy

Dear Mr. Courtney,
I spoke with you briefly on Saturday in Enfield at the Wreaths Across America Ceremony at St. Patrick’s Cemetery about the proposed decommissioning of two Navy Helicopter Squadrons, HSC-84 (Red Wolves) and HSC-85 (Fire Hawks). I would like to give you some background on the missions of those squadrons and some history to show the continued need for specialized Naval Close Air support for Naval Riverine and Special Warfare Units.

The following two notes were recently received on the U.S. Navy Seawolf forum at (www.seawolf.org).

1. Seawolves, Once again the 2 Navy helo squadrons that carry on one of the most cherished and honorable legacies in Naval aviation (that of the HAL-3 Seawolves) are in danger of decommissioning in 2016.  In case you haven't seen the story, I've included a link to it below.  We could really use the lobbying power of the mighty Seawolves to effectively engage Congress.  
http://www.navytimes.com/story/military/pentagon/2014/12/07/navy-spec-ops-helicoper-squadrons-shutdown/70025352/

2. I hope I am not intruding in forum.....I trust you know that we in the Redwolves and Firehawks hold you all in the highest regard for all that you have done.
Long story short once again the Navy is looking to make cuts to save $$ and 84/85 are likely targets. I received a letter from CAPT (ret) Sean Butcher to as many alumni as he knew suggesting that all of us get in touch with our congress reps especially those on armed services committee.  I cannot understand why the Navy would choose to do this ...
I don't know if any of you all know of any congressmen/women or any other connections that could help the fight, but I also ask for your prayers.

There have been several very positive responses to these requests posted on the Seawolf Forum.

Some brief History:
In the early days of the Viet Nam War, the Navy was tasked with riverine and coastal warfare. In response the Navy Special Warfare, (NSW) provided Seal Team Units, River Patrol Boats (PBR) and Swift Boats, among many other types of craft.
Initially the Navy relied on Army Helicopter Support, and it quickly became apparent that the Army units were unable to meet the Navy’s all weather, round the clock, ship-board operations requirements. Many Army pilots were not instrument rates, and their helos were not equipped for over water operations. The Navy felt the need for a dedicated Naval Helicopter Unit for close air combat support for the Riverine units.
Navy pilots were accustomed to ship-board – over water operations, all were instrument rated and could fly in all type of weather and low/no visibility operations. The Army helos used by the Navy were modified to meet Navy’s requirements, mainly by the addition of a radar altimeter… The HAL-3 Seawolves were born and went on to become one of the most versatile and respected Naval Units in the Viet Nam era.
The HAL-3 Squadron was commissioned in April, 1967, and was de-commissioned in March, 1972.
After 1972 the Navy began a cycle of commissioning and decommissioning 2 Naval Helicopter units with similar mission responsibilities, which evolved into HSC-84 & HSC-85.

In 2006 The Navy resurrected a Riverine type of force in the Navy Expeditionary Combat Command, (NECC). These Naval Special Warfare Units and the SEAL Teams all have need of dedicated Helicopter Support, and often these Helicopter units are called upon to provide Close Air Combat Support in the form of Seal Insertions, Medevacs, Rescue Operations and Direct Fire Support, (Rocket & Gun).
 
We tend to forget the lessons learned over the years as evidenced by the decommissioning of these essential Naval Units. Many say that the Navy Units can call on Army Helicopter Support or for UAV’s. We learned in RVN that Army Helo tactics will not always meet Naval maritime and riverine requirements; there are differences in terminology, language, tactics, priorities and missions. UAV’s will certainly be able to provide visibility and firepower, but the UAV’s cannot do Seal Insertions, rescue and medevac operations, and provide really, really close direct fire support from a low-level, gunner & pilot on site, up close and personal situation.

I would like to request that you do whatever you can to keep these two units flying. The decommissioning of these two squadrons will reduce Special Operations Helicopter Support to all SOF Units: Army, Navy Air Force and Marines by 45%, and, as history shows, will very significantly reduce NSW, Riverine and Maritime Special Operations Helo Support and most importantly the effectiveness of those units.

I am sure that all of the many NSW units who benefit from the Red Wolves and Fire Hawks will certainly appreciate your support.

I am available to you and the Armed Forces Committee and/or The Subcommittee on Seapower should you need further information, and, I am sure I can have many former Red Wolf & Seawolf Officers and Crewmen available, as well.
Thank You


Richard N. Meussner, (U.S. Navy HAL-3 Seawolves, 1967-1968)
16 Pease St.
Enfield, CT 06082
860-741-2493
rinome@cox.net

enclosures:
a. Talking Points HSC-84 & HSC-85 Support to SOF
b. Timeline of Events HSC-84 & HSC-85 Sequestration/ALT-POM  Discussions Between SOCOM and U.S. Navy
c. HSC-84 & HSC-85 Historical Facts
d. Navy Times Dec. 7, 2014 “Two Spec Ops Helo Squadrons Imperiled by Budget Battle"
e. The History of the Red Wolves
f. HSC-84 Recognized with Four Awards
g. HSC-85 Always Ready for the Call of Duty & HSC-85 Takes on New Role Supporting Special Warfare Operations
h. 111th Congress 2nd Session House Resolution 1228 dated July 1, 2010